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comp.dsp is the Usenet newsgroup devoted to sharing information about Digital Signal Processing. Here, dspGuru provides information for all things comp.dsp.

All about comp.dsp:

Web Portal

DSPrelated.com provides a web portal to comp.dsp that makes it easy to read and submit posts.  It also includes blogs from several prominent comp.dsp contributors.

DSPrelated logo

The DSP Tricks Project:

A few of the regulars in comp.dsp once launched a project to collect and compile a list of known "DSP Tricks". By a "Trick", we mean some clever DSP technique used to make a processing algorithm operate more efficiently.

Fun with comp.dsp

These are classic posts that have tickled the funnybone of comp.dsp readers over the years.

How to Search the comp.dsp Archives

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You can search the comp.dsp archives via Google's "Group" search features. Google provides two search interfaces: a basic search and an advanced search.

Search Tips:

The Culture of comp.dsp

As best anybody can tell, the comp.dsp newsgroup doesn't have a charter which describes what it is supposed to be. But if you think of a newsgroup as a "cocktail party", what really matters is not its "charter" but its "personality", that is, its "culture". In that vein, this document is intended to characterize the prevailing culture of the comp.dsp newsgroup.

Purpose

The Usenet newsgroup "comp.dsp" is devoted to discussing all aspects of Digital Signal Processing, as well as related areas of engineering, science and mathematics. (This is similar to what the comp.dsp FAQ says, but a little more specific.) This sentence defines "on topic".

Threads

Good Threads:

  1. Interesting DSP-related questions of all kinds.
  2. Tasteful announcements of DSP-related products or services. (Please mark with "announce:" or similar.)
  3. Off-topic things which might be of general interest to the people who are involved in comp.dsp. (Please mark with "OT:" or similar.)

Acceptable Threads:

  1. Questions which have been asked a million times before. (As a courtesy, please read the comp.dsp FAQ first and search the comp.dsp archives before you ask a question that may have been asked a million times before.)
  2. DSP-related job ads. (Please mark with "job:" or similar, and also include the geographic region in the subject.)

Bad Threads:

  1. "Inflamatory" topics involving religion, politics, nationality, ethnicity, etc.
  2. Off-topic not of general interest (a.k.a. spam).
  3. Questions or statements designed to be controversial (even if DSP-related).
  4. Broad cross-postings (posting to a large number of news groups at once).
  5. Resumes.

Post Content

Good Post Content:

  1. Intelligent DSP questions.
  2. Intelligent DSP answers.
  3. Well-intended quotes or humor stemming from the discussion.
  4. Entertaining digressions of all kinds. (When digressing, please change the subject line accordingly.)

Acceptable Post Content:

  1. Tasteful plugs of a product or service which are a valid answer to a question. (If you are connected with the plug, please make your connection clear.)
  2. Flames, when somebody deserves it. (When digressing into a flame, please change the subject line accordingly.)
  3. Test posts, when you are a newbie and you don't already know about the "misc.test" newsgroup, which is what you really should use for that, which you would know if you weren't a newbie.

Unacceptable Post Content:

  1. Newbie bashing. (A large part of what comp.dsp does is help newbies.)
  2. Deliberate misleading, inaccurate, or false statements.
  3. Deliberate trolls.
  4. Racist or nationalist remarks which may offend any of comp.dsp's reader's worldwide.
  5. Posts which slander someone, violate their privacy, or otherwise go beyond ordinary flaming.
  6. Shunnings. (How can you post a shunning, silly? ;-)

A Few Post Content Guidelines:

  1. Please read up on the general rules of netiquette before you post anything.
  2. Please read comp.dsp for awhile to get the "flavor" of it before you post anything.
  3. Try to accurately describe the post's content in the "subject" field so people who don't want to read your post can easily skip it.
  4. When changing the subject line of a thread, include the previous subject, e.g., "new subject: (was: old subject)".
  5. Please do not use any darn curse words.
  6. Please spell out all the words u use.
  7. capitalization is Optional.
  8. Speeling mistakes are acceptable
  9. Please do not nitpick the speeling or grammar of others (at least without a clever literary purpose); if you understand what somebody is trying to say, that's good enough.
  10. Please do not make fun of people who don't speak English very goodly; they probably speak _your_ language much better than you speak theirs.
  11. When replying, quote just enough of the previous post to provide adequate context, but no more. Put in "[snip]" or similar wherever you delete significant segments of a previous post.
  12. When providing URL's, please include "http://" so the URL can be clicked-on in the newsreader. Also, please leave spaces around URL's to help newsreaders which are too stupid to figure out where the URL begins and ends.

Miscellaneous

Names: A cocktail party should be friendly. In the interest of "friendliness", please provide a first and last name. (If using your real name makes you uncomfortable, simply make one up and we'll never know the difference.) If you wish instead to use a "handle", please at least provide us with a first name (again, for friendliness).

Business use of comp.dsp: Use of comp.dsp for business purposes is acceptable, and, in fact, many of the comp.dsp regulars have a DSP-related business interest of some kind. However, please disclose your business interest. Also, if you regularly use comp.dsp to promote your business, please "pay" for that by answering unrelated DSP questions (which is only fair.)

Discipline on comp.dsp: comp.dsp is an unmoderated newsgroup. No person or group is in charge of it, and no one has any "official" status. At all times, comp.dsp simply reflects the tastes and personalities of the people who participate in it. As an unmoderated newsgroup, anyone can say anything they like in comp.dsp. However, participants use "discipline" to discourage violations of comp.dsp's culture. The only forms of discipline that are acceptable are "flaming" (responding with hot words or making them look stupid) and "shunning" (ignoring somebody, a.k.a. "putting them into the killfile"). Of these, shunning is more mature, but flaming is more fun. ;-)

If you *do* feel the need to impose discipline on someone, first resist the feeling. Next, please limit discipline to one of these two forms. However, if it turns out that you aren't mature enough to shun, and you aren't clever enough to flame, you simply shouldn't be in the discipline business: having failed at flaming and shunning, please DO NOT step "outside the box" by using other forms of "discipline" such as reporting people to their ISP's, creating slanderous web pages, "outing" their personal information, etc. This sort of bad behavior will INSTANTLY make you a pariah, and it will be a long time, if ever, before you become rehabilitated in the eyes of the group.

Although no single person or group is in charge, if a general concensus develops concerning your behavior on comp.dsp, please respect the concensus by either improving your behavior or going elsewhere.

Usenet terms, acronyms and symbols

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Here we define some terms, acronyms and symbols which commonly appear on Usenet

Terms

Here are a few important Usenet terms (borrowed from the The New Hacker's Dictionary).

flame 1. /vi./ To post an email message intended to insult and provoke. 2. /vi./ To speak incessantly and/or rabidly on some relatively uninteresting subject or with a patently ridiculous attitude. 3. /vt./ Either of senses 1 or 2, directed with hostility at a particular person or people. 4. /n./ An instance of flaming. When a discussion degenerates into useless controversy, one might tell the participants "Now you're just flaming" or "Stop all that flamage!" to try to get them to cool down (so to speak).

newbie /n[y]oo'bee/ /n./ [orig. from British public-school and military slang variant of `new boy'] A Usenet neophyte. This term surfaced in the newsgroup talk.bizarre but is now in wide use. Criteria for being considered a newbie vary wildly; a person can be called a newbie in one newsgroup while remaining a respected regular in another. The label `newbie' is sometimes applied as a serious insult to a person who has been around Usenet for a long time but who carefully hides all evidence of having a clue.

troll /v.,n./ [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.

Acronyms

Usenet acronyms are shorthand for common thoughts:

AFAIKCR As Far As I Can Recall
AFAIK As Far As I Know
AIUI As I Understand It
BION Believe It Or Not
BTDT Been There Done That
BTW By The Way
FWIW For What It's Worth
IIRC If I Recall Correctly
 
IMHO In My Humble Opinion
OTOH On The Other Hand
ROFL Roll On Floor Laughing
ROFLMAO Roll On Floor Laughing My (Arse) Off
RSN Real Soon Now
RTFM Read The (Fine) Manual
TIA Thanks In Advance

Symbols

Smilies (a.ka. "emoticons") are symbols which help clarify your intent when you're communicating with a person who can't see your face or hear the tone of your voice:

:-) Smiling (friendly)
;-) Winking (teasing)
:-( Sad (petulant)
:-P Tongue hanging out in Anticipation

nbsp;

A Call for Tricks

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On April 17, 1999, in the post below, Rick Lyons issues "A Call for DSP Tricks":

Well Guys,

We have a plan on how we'll collect, compile, and display any clever DSP Tricks that you'd like to share with other DSP practitioners. By a "Trick", we mean some clever DSP technique used to make a processing algorithm operate more efficiently. (For example, how to estimate the magnitude of a complex number, based on the I & Q values, without having to perform a square root calculation.) The "we", in this operation, are Julius Kusuma, Ole Wolf, Grant Griffin, and Rick Lyons.

We're also looking for additional volunteers to help "review" some of the submitted "DSP Tricks". Here's a brief description of our plan:

  1. You submit your "candidate" DSP Trick by posting a brief description of it here on comp.dsp.
  2. The DSP Tricks Team will review and "publish" (display) the tricks on the new dspGuru.com web site. Please bear with us, the review process might take a while. We may not be able to use every submission. If someone submits: "left shift a binary number by one bit to accomplish a multiply by two", that may be too trivial to use. We'll have to decide. If Dr. Mike submits a trick related to enhancing Elliptic Curve Cryptography, we'll have to decide if that may be useful to mortal men. (Volunteer to be a "reviewer", and you can help make these decisions.)
  3. We prefer that you create your own supporting materials such as equations, artwork, and software. However, we'll help wherever we can to make the web site version of your "Trick" understandable.
  4. While the trick will not belong to anyone, your name will be listed as the Contributor.

So guys, if you're willing to share your DSP Tricks with other DSPers, we'll take the trouble to make it happen. The goal here is to assemble a collection of useful DSP Tricks that will make DSP engineering easier for us all. One DSPer (fuller1) suggested we compile a list of "gotchas". That's an idea that will have to wait until we get settled in compiling Tricks. We'll ask you guys to submit gotchas later, at which time we'll do our best to explain what a gotcha is to our European friends. (Anyone want to volunteer to define "gotcha" in a clear, concise, and understandable way?) We're hoping you'll submit tricks that fall into something like the following general categories:

CATEGORIES:

TO SUBMIT A DSP TRICK, please do the following three things:

  1. Use the following "Form" and submit your DSP Trick by posting it on the comp.dsp news group. That form will make life easier for the volunteers who compile the tricks.
  2. Include the word "Trick" in your comp.dsp post's "Subject" line, making it easier for us to recognize your submission.
  3. PLEASE! DO NOT delete the text: "THIS WORK IS PLACED IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN" from the form. DO NOT submit any Company Proprietary material. We cannot publish it. (We must protect ourselves with that "public domain" text.)

============================================================


--- DSP Trick Submission Form ---

============================================================

THIS WORK IS PLACED IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
Name: (A title for your Trick.)

Category: (One of the category choices listed above.) Application: (When would someone use your Trick?) Advantages: (What's good about your Trick.) Introduction: (Some text to help the reader understand.) The Trick: (Here's where you describe your DSP Trick.) ===========================================================
this post used with the permission of the author

Classic comp.dsp Posts

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Classic Posts


Here, we list some classic fun posts that has appeared on comp.dsp:

Grant's Rants

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Grant's Rants

by Grant R. Griffin

"Rants" are a bit of an art form on Usenet. Grant's Rants are Rants I've inflicted on Usenet's comp.dsp newsgroup.

Rants are written by a crazy person. Please don't take him seriously.

Rants are just for fun. If a rant offends you, it's probably not my fault. (Now don't get me started on _that_...)

Beyond that, the best way I can explain rants is not to. Just experience one.

(drum roll)

And now, Ladies and Gentlemen...I give you...The Rants:

Rubber Feet

Why DSP Starter Kits don't come with little rubber feet.

Senseless Waste of Bandwidth

Here, I finally tie up the controversial subject of whether Usenet's "bandwidth" should be wasted.

Grant's Rants: Rubber Feet, Part 1

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Rubber Feet, Part I

by Grant R. Griffin


Ivy wrote:
> 
> Hi I just got AD EZ-Kit Lite today.
> 
> Inside package, I got
>
...
> 
> Are these all? or am i missing something?
> 
> Ivy
 

I'm not sure, but if you had bought a Texas Instruments DSK and it was missing a power supply and little rubber feet on the bottom, you wouldn't be missing anything they shouldn't have just given you in the first place for a lousy $150 what in the heck are we paying $150 for and how much do a few stupid little rubber feet cost and why the heck do I have to make a special trip to Radio Shack and buy a darned Nintendo replacement power supply--no kidding--that's what it said right there in the darned DSK book that I should buy which just proves right there that they knew they should have given me one because they knew the thing was absolutely useless without it although maybe it would have made a nice coaster for my coffee cup except that I don't drink coffee not that there's anyhing wrong with that no of course not and I don't mind the $19 so much as the fact that I had to go and make a special trip and then find the darned Radio Shack that was nearest to where I work which I had never been to before and then I got lost but I was eventually able to find the place and the gal there was real nice but that little adventure blew half the darned working day which really wasn't so bad when you think about it because I got to get out and get a little fresh air and the company paid me for my time anyway and they gave me back my $19 though in all honesty I ended up buying my own gas but that wasn't much so what the heck am I griping about anyway?

Thanks, I feel better now.

=g2

Grant's Rants: Rubber Feet, Part 2

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Rubber Feet, Part II

by Grant R. Griffin


Jim S. wrote:
> Grant,
> 
> That [Part 1] has got to be up there as one of the better rants I have 
> ever seen written. Two questions:

Thanks. :-)

> 
> 1) Did you really dictate it? If so, congratulations to your secretary
>    or please tell us what voice recognition software you used - it's

>    worth it.

No.

> 
> 2) Do you also do Bill from White Plains for Imus?

No.

> 
> 
> Jim

or, in rantese:

Well thanks Jim for the kind compliment I really appreciate it when I get one and I like to thank people because it encourages more compliments though I really don't want to encourage toadyism or sychophancy because let's face it the world already has too much of that but to answer your question I really didn't dictate it I just started typing and I typed as fast as I could and I just barely kept up with all the junk that was spraying out of my head like shrapnel out of a morter shell and I got into a sortta Zen in-the-moment sortta thing and I just kept on going kindda like I'm going right now except that I have to tell you that I went back through it a few times and punched it up just like I'm gonna punch this one up like I just did which shows you right there the fallacy of the whole nutty Zen in-the-moment-thing not to mention the fact that Casey Stengel the great baseball coach and Zen Master said that nobody could think and hit at the same time so I bet he had to pay a lot for car insurance because he never thought about his driving so he must have hit a lot of people with his car but to answer your question no I don't do Bill for Imus and I've only ever heard Imus that one time when they showed him roasting Bill and Hillary right before their very eyes which was very funny but also kindda morbidly fascinating just like when you drive past a car wreck like the kind Casey Stengel must have caused a lot of but to answer your question I really never get to hear Imus even though I would like to because in the morning I listen to National Public Radio which strangely is populated with people who have speech impediments not that there is anything wrong with that no of course not except that I just don't think they should be on the radio just like I don't think ugly people should be on TV though a lot of people seem to like to watch Barbara Walters even though she's hideous like Don Imus who is at least smart enough to be seen on radio except that now he's become a big star so they run his radio show on TV which only makes the problem worse because it makes Barbara Walters want to be on radio because she has a speech impediment which got me wondering what would happen if Don Imus and Barbara Walters slipped away somewhere together and mated and then Barbara squeezed out a two-headed calf or something don't you think a lot of people would be morbidly fascinated with the calf and would stare at it like they stared at Casey Stengel's car wrecks and maybe even pay a lot of money to see it or at the very least tune in their TV sets to see it even if they have to look at Barbara Walters when she wears that stupid Chairman Mao jacket of hers?

(you people don't know what it's like--living inside this head.)

=g2

Grant's Rants: Rubber Feet, Part 3

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Rubber Feet, Part III

by Grant R. Griffin


John E. wrote:
> 
> Ha!
> 
... 
> As Chris B. points out, USA plugs are un-useful to a lot of us.  (Until
> recently, in the UK if you bought almost ANY electrical appliance of
> WHATEVER value, the mains plug was extra, and you had to fit it yourself!)
> 
> John.

Right, John, I had forgotten why I couldn't use my handy lab supply for that, but 9VAC is a singularly unfriendly requirement within the context of the normal engineering lab environment true I could have butchered the thing but it was just a lot easier and better to go to Radio Shack and if I had butchered it then I would have voided the warranty which probably was part of their sneeky little plan all along the way meaning that they wanted me to void the warranty before the darned DSK died an early death due to infant mortality due to a lack of uniform quality so perhaps my rant should have been why in the heck do they use a 9VAC supply when they know no self-respecting engineering organization keeps anything on hand that can make anything like 9VAC so they probably were hoping I was going to plug it into 115VAC which would certainly void the warranty but I hold a degree in Electrical Engineering so I wasn't about to fall for that one do they think I just fell off the turnup truck so although it's true that it wouldn't be that hard to butcher the thing to bypass the little AC rectifier to connect it to a lab supply which it should have been designed for in the first place it really makes me wonder if these TI people are living on the right planet inasmuch as they live in Texas not that there's anything wrong with that no of course not but anybody who has ever been there will know what I mean when I say that to a large extent it seems like a different planet with all the cowboy boots and cowboy hats and those big loud friendly "how-dee's" it make you think you're stuck in "Americaville" in Euro Disney or at least somewhere in The Twilight Zone though to be fair virtually all of my experience in Texas was in Greenville which I don't think anybody would say was a typical sort of place and even Texans would probably say it was something like another planet to them for example have you ever tried to get decent food in Greenville I was amazed at how even the Chinese food is bad there and I mean really bad whereas when was the last time you ever had bad Chineese food because some people like Chinese food and some people don't not that there's anything wrong with that no of course not except that for those of us who _do_ like Chinese food we often are amazed at the uniform high quality of it inasmuch as it isn't a chain like McDonalds which is not to say that McDonalds has uniform high quality it just has a uniform quality inasmuch as the people who help you there all wear uniforms which just goes to show that quality is in the eye of the beholder like when that gal got scalded by that high-quality cup of hot coffee and McDonalds got sued NOT because one gal got scalded by one cup of coffee at one McDonalds but because McDonalds were uniformly scalding gal's all over the country which just goes to show you the fallacy of uniforms and uniformity and illustrates that six-sigma isn't all its cracked up to be which makes me wonder who died and got put that guy in charge of how many sigma's we need I mean if it was up to me I would have just let it go at five sigmas and made things a little easier on everybody but nooooo some yokel had to come up with six sigma which isn't so bad in itself except that now you gotta wonder when they're gonna make us do seven or eight sigmas and let's be honest how many darned sigma's do we really need and I think we did just fine before we had any darned sigma's and that's what made America great but I think TI's DSK kit would qualify no matter how many sigma's you wanted because not a single darned DSK comes with a Nintendo power supply yet each and every darned one of them comes with a little book that tells you to buy a Nintendo power supply at Radio Shack which just proves once again that uniformity is a bad thing if it leads extra trips to Radio Shack and gals getting scalded.

=g2

Grant's Rants: Senseless Waste of Bandwidth

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Senseless Waste of Bandwidth

by Grant R. Griffin

Friends,

I followed the recent thread "Turn OFF the HTML BS please" with interest though I never participated in it because I don't want to encourage people to curse on Usenet because let's face it we're all adults here and there really isn't any need to curse because heck there are just much better friggin ways for us to express ourselves here in a public venue which is read worldwide by people of All Nations and All Cultures however that's not to say that I want to limit your freedom of expression because let's face it nobody died and put me in charge of Usenet so it really isn't my place to set any rules like for example if I wanted people to turn off the HTML I guess I could express that sentiment in some mature sort of way to try to build a concensus but I still would have to respect the freedom Usenet offers us to post literally anything we want because let's face it who can stop us but that being said the thing I really tuned in on was this whole "waste of bandwith" thing which pops up on Usenet from time-to-time and one can't help but notice that each time this topic gets discussed it seems to be a waste of bandwidth so I'm not here to discuss bandwidth so much as waste and to tell you about some of my experiences in that vein like the time I went on a tour of the Ben and Jerry's ice cream plant in Vermont and the gal there that gave the tour said something that made a lot of sense to me so I'd like to share it with you here namely that we should all "reduce, reuse, and recycle" which one can hardly disagree with take reducing for example, which of us can't get along with a little less and of course there's reusing which seems like a sensible thing to do like for example why do we always throw out our VCR the first time it breaks why can't we get it fixed because it costs more to fix it than to buy a new one OK so that was a bad example and then there's recycling which I think everybody can agree is a good thing like for example when I walk down the hall at work carrying a big box of empty pop cans to the recycle bin I get a good feeling not only because I'm saving the environment and stuff like that but also because I'm wasting my employer's time which is far more important which really brings me to my next point which is that America used to the the Land of Waste and that was What Made America Great and we all had big scary cars which had lots of steel and chrome and even tail fins but then the OPEC decided that they could make more money by not selling us as much oil as they used to which seems to defy common sense but it just goes to show how smart those OPEC guys are because it really worked so all of a sudden Americans were willing to give up steel and chrome and tailfins for little economy cars that didn't take a whole lot of gas so you didn't have to stand in a long line at the gas station but you still had to stand in line at the Toyota dealer so it makes you wonder how much time those guys really saved but in any event the Japanese began to eat the lunch of the American car manufacturers because they were still pumping out big wasteful steel-and-chrome monstrocities though they had given up on tailfins a long time ago and then there was the whole quality issue but to make a long story short Detroit eventually figured out over a long period of time how to make relatively high-quality, fuel-efficient cars that people liked almost as well as Toyotas which seem to have something of a fanatical following if I may editorialize just a bit and I don't know if the Toyota fans know that they now make Toyota's in America which just goes to show that you can take the Toyota out of Japan but you can't take Japan out of Asia but now that people have gotten used to Toyotas or at least are driving American cars which get good gas milage Americans over a period of years have caught on to the fact that it is Good not to be wasteful though people few articulate this as well as Ben and Jerry inasmuch as they encouraged us to "reduce, reuse, and recycle" for example they told us that if they ever end up with any excess ice cream or they have a batch that doesn't turn out just right they sell it to the local hog farmers who feed it to the hogs and the hogs just love it but then again what else did you expect the hog to do but speaking of waste I must say that Ben and Jerry's ice cream is a tremendous waste of money inasmuch as it costs so darn much but if the hogs don't have to pay as much as we do I can see why they like it so even though I complain about Ben and Jerry's itself I still like the concept of "reduce, reuse, and recycle" and I have tried to apply this in my own life starting with reducing the amount of Ben and Jerry's ice cream I eat but a lot of other Americans have begun to reduce waste which was once a lifestyle for us and was once something that made us Proud to Be Americans like for example we now recycle pop cans and newspapers and even plastic milk cartons which they've probably been doing in Europe for years but it is a big step forward for us Americans though much as I agree with the concept of reducing waste I think the true reason we Americans are doing it is a little strange if you'll paron me saying so that reason being that now that we have cheap oil again our Nation's Most Precious Resource has become The Landfill yes you heard me right The Landfill now who would ever think that Landfill's would ever become our Nation's Most Precious National Resource because admittedly there is only a certain amout of oil in the ground there seems to be no limit to the number of Landfills we could dig up because let's face it a Landfill is nothing more than a hole and if there's one thing you can dig up anywhere you plant your shovel it's a hole but of course it's not really that simple because of the fact that nobody wants to live near a landfill because they smell bad like the hogs that eat Ben and Jerry's ice cream and they pollute the ground water like the hogs that eat Ben and Jerry's ice cream so in that context maybe Landfill's really are Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource so that just puts us back to the idea that we should "reduce, reuse, and recycle" because if we don't throw so much stuff away we can conserve Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource although I gotta tell you that if landfills had only the stuff in them that we recycle like newspapers, pop cans, and plastic milk bottles nobody would really mind living next to one because those things don't smell nearly as bad as Ben and Jerry's hogs and let's face it pop cans don't pollute ground water but this just brings me to the main point of all this which is that since we can no longer waste anything of any kind given that the Landfill is Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource then I think we at least ought to be able to waste bandwidth because you don't even have to bury that after you're done with it though to be fair there are probably lots of fiber optic cables with lots of bandwidth which are buried that archeologists a thousand years from now will dig up and ask themselves, "what did these people have to talk about that was so important" and they'll scratch their heads and keep on digging but for the time being I think we Americans should get back to our Heritage of Waste and never loose sight of What Made This Country Great which let's be honest about it involved a great talent for waste which again brings me back to the main point which is that in these latter days of cheap computing and instant telelcommunications the least we can do is to treat ourselves to a little waste in terms of bandwidth which when you get right down to it really doesn't hurt anybody and even for those of you who aren't Americans and who don't come from a culture and a heritage of Waste I invite you to join me in this Noble American Pursuit because much as John F. Kennedy went to Berlin and declared "Ich bin ein Berliner" I invite you to declare "Ich bin ein American" and to senselessly waste bandwidth wherever you find it.

See the original thread on for an explantion
of what John F. Kennedy really said in Berlin!

Grant's Rants: Senseless Waste of Bandwidth (Annotated)

Senseless Waste of Bandwidth
(Annotated Version)

by Grant R. Griffin


(Before reading this, be sure you've read the original Senseless Waste of Bandwidth.)

Friends,

Some of the literal-minded among us didn't seem to quite get this, and since things have been slow today (at least in comp.dsp), I thought I might add a few little annotations. Those of you who have something better to do can go do it now.

First, a note on the form. This is written in my own "rant form", as a single sentence. Strictly speaking, it really is a _series_ of long sentences, disguised as a single sentence by the absence of periods. This single long sentences, and the relative lack of punctuation and whitespace are simply part of the "form". Form, in art, is neither good nor bad; it's just form. What counts is what you do with it. Still, certain forms stand the test of time, for example the "sonata" and the "haiku" have been around for a long time. It remains to be seen if this rant form will stand. But for me, it works.

Now, into the criticism. Consider the title, "senseless waste of bandwidth". Is the author for or against wasting bandwidth? I guess we'll have to read it to see...


Senseless Waste of Bandwidth

Friends,

Sets a positive tone.

I followed the recent thread "Turn OFF the HTML BS please" with interest though I never participated in it because I don't want to encourage people to curse on Usenet because let's face it we're all adults here and there really isn't any need to curse because heck there are just

"heck"? heck, isn't that just a substitute curse word?

much better friggin ways for us to express ourselves here in a public

in case you didn't pick up on "heck", "friggin" is a red flag. what difference does it make if we use "curse words" or their "substitutes"? Not much really; still, "heck" and "darn" are somehow "charming" rather than vulgar. (Friggin, though, is somewhat vulgar...)

venue which is read worldwide by people of All Nations and All Cultures

For those of you who can't read, this says that Usenet is read worldwide by people of All Nations and All Cultures. This means you.

however that's not to say that I want to limit your freedom of expression because let's face it nobody died and put me in charge of

rant idiom: "died and put ... in charge of".

Usenet so it really isn't my place to set any rules like for example if I wanted people to turn off the HTML I guess I could express that sentiment in some mature sort of way to try to build a concensus but I

this is an example of leadership by example.

still would have to respect the freedom Usenet offers us to post literally anything we want because let's face it who can stop us but

Am I part of the solution or part of the problem? Heck, it doesn't matter: "who can stop us"?

that being said the thing I really tuned in on was this whole "waste of bandwith" thing which pops up on Usenet from time-to-time and one can't help but notice that each time this topic gets discussed it seems to be a waste of bandwidth

I probably wasn't the first person to ever think this thought. But it's a worthwhile point.

so I'm not here to discuss bandwidth so much as waste and to tell you about some of my experiences in that vein like the time I went on a tour of the Ben and Jerry's ice cream plant in Vermont

The theme of "Ben and Jerry's" runs throughout. For those of you who don't know, "Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream" is very expensive, premium ice cream. Ben and Jerry have taken a clever tack in their marketing, by tapping into the back-to-nature values of their customer base--which, ironically, seems to be composed primarily of fat yuppie people who can afford premium ice cream.

and the gal there that gave the tour said something that made a lot of sense to me so I'd like to share it with you here namely that we should all "reduce, reuse, and recycle"

Seriously: I think this is a good concept.

which one can hardly disagree with take reducing for example, which of us can't get along with a little less and

Like Ben and Jerry, for example.

of course there's reusing which seems like a sensible thing to do like for example why do we always throw out our VCR the first time it breaks why can't we get it fixed because it costs more to fix it than to buy a new

Ironic point: there really are sound economic reasons to throw things away sometimes. Take, for example, disposable diapers. If you try to reuse them, it simply doesn't work. Please throw them away.

one OK so that was a bad example

Irony: so why did you bring it up, idiot?

and then there's recycling which I think everybody can agree is a good thing like for example when I walk down the hall at work carrying a big box of empty pop cans to the recycle bin I get a good feeling

True--although I also feel like a dork.

not only because I'm saving the environment and stuff like that but also because I'm wasting my employer's time which is far more important

True--which makes me feel better about feeling like a dork.

which really brings me to my next point which is that America used to the the Land of Waste

Satire here: Why was America _ever_ the Land of Waste?

and that was What Made America Great

rant idom: "That was What Made America Great"

and we all had big scary cars which had lots of steel and chrome and even tail fins

Scary, because Buicks had big chrome teeth. Add the tailfins, and they look like land sharks.

but then the OPEC decided that they could make more money by not selling us as much oil as they used to which seems to defy common sense

though easily understood using the "law of supply": we all learned about that in Econonsense 101.

but it just goes to show how smart those OPEC guys are

but are they really smart? we'll see...

because it really worked so all of a sudden Americans were willing to give up steel and chrome and tailfins for little economy cars that didn't take a whole lot of gas

true

so you didn't have to stand in a long line at the gas station but you still had to stand in line at the Toyota dealer so it makes you wonder how much time those guys really saved

Irony: you only had to stand in line at the Toyota dealer once.

but in any event the Japanese began to eat the lunch of the American car manufacturers because they were still pumping out big wasteful steel-and-chrome monstrocities

this is a callback to the concept of "scary"

though they had given up on tailfins a long time ago

again, scary

and then there was the whole quality issue but to make a long story short

let's not waste bandwidth on that one.

For those of you who comprise "All Peoples and Cultures", "Detroit" is synonomous with "American car manufacturers"

eventually figured out over a long period of time

why did it take so darn long?

how to make relatively

"relatively"? I'm hedging here--let's not waste bandwidth arguing this.

high-quality, fuel-efficient cars that people liked almost as well as Toyotas which seem to have something of a fanatical following

I've never owned one, so I guess I just don't understand...

if I may editorialize just a bit and

Waitaminute? Isn't this whole _thing_ an editorial?

I don't know if the Toyota fans know that they now make Toyota's in America which just goes to show that you can take the Toyota out of Japan

We in America can make a car that's just as darn good as a darn Japanese car (IMHO). Na-na-nana-na.

but you can't take Japan out of Asia

A silly, though undeniably true, statement...has vaguely racist overtones.

Also, this uses a rant idom: "you can take the ... out of ... but you can't take the ... out of ..."

but now that people have gotten used to Toyotas or at least are driving American cars which get good gas milage Americans over a period of years have caught on to the fact that it is Good not to be wasteful

Why use a capital "G"? This conservation thing has become something of a religion for some people...

though people few articulate this as well as Ben and Jerry inasmuch as they encouraged us to "reduce, reuse, and recycle"

callback/tieback

for example they told us that if they ever end up with any excess ice cream or they have a batch that doesn't turn out just right they sell it

"sell"? Maybe these guys aren't environmentalists so much as just good businessmen...

to the local hog farmers who feed it to the hogs and the hogs just love it but then again what else did you expect the hog to do

Well, what else _did_ you expect the hog to do? A hog would have to be pretty darn dumb not to like ice cream...

but speaking of waste I must say that Ben and Jerry's ice cream is a tremendous waste of money inasmuch as it costs so darn much

This "reduce, reuse, recycle" thing might have bad implications for sales, if yuppie ice cream customers with too much disposable income begin to really practice it. Beware Ben, beware Jerry!

but if the hogs don't have to pay as much as we do I can see why they like it so

irony

and even though I complain about Ben and Jerry's itself I still like the concept of "reduce, reuse, and recycle"

tieback

and I have tried to apply this in my own life starting with reducing the amount of Ben and Jerry's ice cream I eat but a lot of other Americans have begun to reduce waste

double tieback

which was once a lifestyle for us and was once something that made us Proud to Be Americans like for example we now recycle pop cans and newspapers and even plastic milk cartons which they've probably been doing in Europe for years

hedging

but it is a big step forward for us Americans

irony: it's really just a little step.

though much as I agree with the concept of reducing waste I think the true reason we Americans are doing it is a little strange

honestly, I do.

if you'll paron me saying so

irony: once again--you can't stop me.

that reason being that now that we have cheap oil

waitaminute! Sure, OPEC made some good dough for awhile, but then they taught us all to drive cars that get good gas mileage, and to find lots of new sources of oil. Then they started fighting amongst themselves. I'm not sure those OPEC guys are so darn smart after all...

again our Nation's Most Precious Resource has become The Landfill yes you heard me right The Landfill now who would ever think that Landfill's would ever become our Nation's Most Precious National Resource because

Satire: "Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource"

admittedly there is only a certain amout of oil in the ground there seems to be no limit to the number of Landfills we could dig up because let's face it a Landfill is nothing more than a hole and if there's one thing you can dig up anywhere you plant your shovel it's a hole

I was rather proud of this one. It has a nice sort of "Lewis Carroll" flavor to it.

but of course it's not really that simple because of the fact that nobody wants to live near a landfill because they smell bad like the hogs that eat Ben and Jerry's ice cream and they pollute the ground water like the hogs that eat Ben and Jerry's ice cream

Ben and Jerry are basically hypocrites.

so in that context maybe Landfill's really are Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource so that just puts us back to the idea that we should "reduce, reuse, and recycle"

tieback

because if we don't throw so much stuff away we can conserve Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource although I gotta tell you that if landfills had only the stuff in them that we recycle like newspapers, pop cans, and plastic milk bottles nobody would really mind living next to one

an honest point here: the things we recycle wouldn't be bad things to put in landfills: we'd just have to dig a little bigger hole.

because those things don't smell nearly as bad as Ben and Jerry's hogs

sell it, brother, sell it!

and let's face it pop cans don't pollute ground water

(ok, this one was a little weak)

but this just brings me to the main point of all this

Finally! But there's still another mile to walk...

which is that since we can no longer waste anything of any kind given that the Landfill is Our Nation's Most Precious National Resource then I think we at least ought to be able to waste bandwidth because you don't even have to bury that after you're done with it

unlike most other stuff we waste

though to be fair

rant concilliation

there are probably lots of fiber optic cables with lots of bandwidth which are buried

I just stumbled onto this one as I wrote it. Beautiful!

that archeologists a thousand years from now will dig up and ask themselves, "what did these people have to talk about that was so important" and they'll scratch their heads and keep on digging

Satire: ALL of Usenet is a waste of bandwidth, silly!

but for the time being I think we Americans should get back to our Heritage of Waste and never loose sight of What Made This Country Great which let's be honest about it

more rant idioms

involved a great talent for waste

what "talent" is needed?

which again brings me back to the main point

hey! I thought we were already there!

which is that in these latter days of cheap computing and instant telelcommunications

redundancy for the sake of parallel structure: what other kind of telecommunications is there besides "instant"?

the least we can do is to treat ourselves to a little waste in terms of bandwidth which when you get right down to it

rant idiom: "when you get right down to it"

really doesn't hurt anybody

serious point: when you get right down to it, it really doesn't hurt anybody

and even for those of you who aren't Americans and who don't come from a culture and a

For those of you who can't read, the phrase "even for those of you who aren't Americans" means "even for those of you who aren't Americans".

heritage of Waste I invite you to join me in this Noble American Pursuit

Irony: NOBLE American Pursuit?

because much as John F. Kennedy went to Berlin and declared "Ich bin ein Berliner"

I honestly didn't know about the donut thing [that Kennedy had declared himself to be a donut]. Still, if I may backpeddle a bit (and remember, you can't stop me), I think it only adds to the value of the piece. And it makes me glad that the Soviets didn't build a wall in Hamburg. Or Frankfurt.

I invite you to declare "Ich bin ein American" and to

Deliberately silly use of German here: it would have been more sensible to say "I am an American".

Note that this entire paragraph was intended to include those of you who _aren't_ Americans in my "Noble American Pursuit". Much as Kennedy wasn't really a "Berliner" (either kind), this phrase works primarily for those of you who aren't Americans.

I'm well aware that there are many non-Americans out there. In fact, scientific studies have proven that the vast majority of people outside America aren't Americans. Note that playing a bit of the "Ugly American" is part of the ironic undertone of the piece. It's intentional. But I totally respect you for whoever you are. Even if you people wear funny hats.

senselessly waste bandwidth wherever you find it.

serious point--let's have fun here on Usenet

<G>-rant

for those of you who don't know a rant when you see one.

=g2

Cramer-Rao Bound

Crammer-Rao Bound

by Peter Kootsookos

From: Peter K.
Subject: Re: crammer-rao bound
Newsgroups: comp.dsp
Date: 2001-01-20 11:31:54 PST
Cramer-Rao Bound =================== I'm sittin' at the Sun workstation Got a signal for elimination, mm-hm If I can we'll all clap hands Rick 'n' Grant will do handstands And every noise is neatly canned 'Cos it's been sent out-of-band Cramer-Rao bound, I wish I knew Cramer-Rao bound Bound, where my brain is achin' Bound, where my stats are failin' Bound, where my signal's waitin' noiselessly for me This signal's an endless stream Of Poisson noise and grindin' teeth, mm-hm And each spike looks the same to me Can it be noise or is it speech? And every time I think I see It turns out that it's spike-free! Cramer-Rao bound, I wish I knew Cramer-Rao bound Bound, where my brain is achin' Bound, where my stats are failin' Bound, where my signal's waitin' noiselessly for me Tonight I'll run my scripts again I'll play the tape until it ends, mm-hm But all my runs come back to me With dubious veracity Like E. Bob with senility I need someone to remind me Cramer-Rao bound, I wish I knew Cramer-Rao bound Bound, where my brain is achin' Bound, where my stats are failin' Bound, where my signal's waitin' noiselessly for me Noiselessly for me
======================================= (With abject apologies to "Homeward Bound" sung by Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel) Ciao, Peter K.

Stupid

the unofficial comp.dsp home page

On rare occassion, someone on USENET advances the state-of-the-art of stupidity. One such "contributor" to comp.dsp received the following ode:

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are.

I mean rock-hard stupid.
Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid.
Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole
different dimension of stupid.
You are trans-stupid stupid.
Meta-stupid.

Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed.
Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape.
Singularity stupid.
Blazing-hot-midday-sun-on-Mercury stupid.
You emit more stupid in one nanosecond than our entire galaxy emits in a year.

Quasar stupid.

Erik de Castro Lopo writes:
>I was the one who used it on comp.dsp, but I am not the author.
>The original author is lost in the history of usenet. 

>
>Back before they broke Deja.com I searched for this and found posts 
>containing it dating back to 1995 which was as far back as Deja had 
>records. Even on that post someone stated they'd seen it before :-).

comp dot dsp guy

Subject: comp dot dsp guy
Date: 21 May 1999 00:00:00
Newsgroups: comp.dsp

A few months ago someone requested new lyrics to the song "American Pie" with a comp.dsp twist. Ever since then, I wanted to take a crack at it, but never had the time.

Well, I finally made some time, so here it is. I hope you enjoy it! The lyrics to the real song can be found here.

With apologies to Don McLean, and with no further adieu..."

A long, long time ago
I can still remember how that USENET used to make me smile
And I knew that if I were able
That I could make that filter stable
And maybe it'd be bandpass for a while

But limit cycles made me shiver
A delta input made it quiver
Bad news on the o'scope
I didn't know if I could cope

I can't remember if I was wise
When I read about finite word size
But I was seeking sage replies
I asked... comp dsp guys.

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie
Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

Did you write a book like Rick?
And can you donate some clever trick?
If the guru asks for one?
Do you believe in GPL?
Do you boycott Bill Gates? Intel?
And can you teach me how to code for fun?

Well I know that you've got more to say
And you're just as sharp as rb-j
You're both fixed-point guru's
Man I dig those rants of=g2's!

He was an engineer stuck in the lab
With a quick connection and the "gift" of gab
But I knew he would take a stab
I'd ask... comp dsp guys

My filter's ringin'

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie
Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

My filter's ringin'

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie
Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

Now 4 2 years - and no zxform
And r u any1 2 mourn?
But that's not the way it used 2B
Then "are assembly programmers goin' extinct?"
And the VSIP threads, well - in they slinked
And that troll, his endless posts they really stinked

Oh and when Kusuma told him "please pipe down!"
He tried to steal his cap and gown
"I'm going to tell your dean!"
Man that e-bob sure is mean!

And while Griffin wrote another rant
Old e-bob topped his list with Grant
Proving he had less brains than a plant
just ask - comp dsp guys

My filter's ringin'

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie
Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

Filter, filter, way outta kilter
Could it be the way I built 'er?
eight days late and slippin' 'way
You think I need a Sharc array?
Or put it in an FPGA?
If you have troubles, just ask Ray
All the lurkers on the sidelines - reading Clay

Now those half-band filters - sweetly tuned
Those zero-valued samples pruned
His ASCII art will amaze ya'
Check out that long-haired Lasse!

A shifted pitch you want to hack?
Then you should look at Sprenger's FAQ
Should you pass pointer on the stack?
just ask - comp dsp guys.

It started ringing!

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie
Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

Oh there we all were all in one place
With poles and zeroes in complex space
With no time left on his exam
So come on! what's the answer? tell me quick!
Cold cash, it's yours! You're a "vocal clique"
'cause cheating is that student's way to cram

Lasse, Jerry, rb-j
Rick, Grant, Doc Mike, and Peter K
No expert on the list
could pop that e-bob cyst!
And as the flames were posted in the night
They swamped the net with a noisy blight
I saw e-bob still thought he was right
just ask - comp dsp guys

He was stingin'

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie
Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

(song slows down here)

Do virgins ever visit bars?
What's MMX to do with cars?
Guess we don't always post 'bout code...
I surfed on down to our friend Bores
Where I'd read the answers once before
But my browser said the web page wouldn't load

And in the labs the speakers screamed
Our bosses cried, one coder dreamed
Of autobuffers sighted
Elias Howe was cited

The professors we admire most
Blackman, harris, Parks, we toast
I've still got time for one more post
I'll ask - comp dsp guys

And they were singin'

Why? Why? comp dot dsp guys
Traded Hamming for a Hanning
'cause the lobes were too high
There's too much noise to let the signal get by
Singin' Oppenheim and Schafer don't lie

Getting Involved in comp.dsp

To get involved in comp.dsp, the first thing you'll need is a "newsreader". That's just the newsgroup equivalent of a browser. Several good newsreaders are available for free: for example, Netscape has one built-in. (Talk to your ISP for more information about installing and configuring a newserver.) Alternatively, you can just use a web-based news service like Deja or Remarq to access comp.dsp via your web browser. This approach is a lot easier to get started, but it's generally a little clunkier to use than a true newsreader.

Once you have access to comp.dsp, the first thing to do is "lurk". "Lurkers" are simply people who read but don't write. Lurkers of all kinds are welcome in comp.dsp. It's best to read comp.dsp for awhile to get the flavor of it before you actually post (submit) anything. (For a heads-up on the general attitudes and expectations of the group, be sure to read about comp.dsp culture.

OK, you've lurked for awhile and you're ready to post. You'll probably want to send out a test message to see if your system is working. But please don't post that to comp.dsp. Instead, post it to the "misc.test" newsgroup, which is basically a dumping ground for test messages. If your test message appears in misc.test, your real message is very likely to appear in comp.dsp.

Now you're graduated from "lurker" to "newbie". Questions from newbies are always welcome. Don't be shy. However, have you done your homework? Before you ask a quesiton, be sure to search the comp.dsp archives (and search dspGuru!) for the answer. This has two benefits. First, and most importantly for you, you will probably get an answer to your question in minutes rather than hours or days. That alone should be a powerful motivation to "search first and ask questions later". Second, by not asking questions which have been answered many times before, you reduce the "clutter" in comp.dsp's traffic--and you don't overwork comp.dsp's "regulars" (question answering people), who work for free.

But having done your homework and your search having failed, you really do need to ask a real live Human Being . Well, that's why comp.dsp is there. Your newsreader probably makes posting a question to comp.dsp no harder than sending an e-mail. But as you write your question, be sure to follow the guidelines of comp.dsp culture. Think of yourself as a guest at a cocktail party: don't block the driveway; be polite; don't track mud on the carpet; put down the toilet seat when you're through.

Welcome aboard comp.dsp!